TownHallMeetingLog20091022

Town Hall Meeting chat log (2009-10-22 UTC)

Note: times below are listed in US/Pacific a.k.a. PDT

[2009/10/21 16:03] Dave Coyle: so, kally, how's your first few weeks on osgrid beed?
[2009/10/21 16:03] Dave Coyle: s/beed/been/
[2009/10/21 16:03] Kally Rakan: fun :)
[2009/10/21 16:03] Kally Rakan: and educational, I didn't realise virtual worlds had quite so much capabilites already
[2009/10/21 16:03] Adam Frisby: Yeah, we can break in fifteen seperate ways. :D
[2009/10/21 16:03] Dave Coyle: hi neb
[2009/10/21 16:04] Nebadon Izumi: this new meerkat is awesome
[2009/10/21 16:04] Nebadon Izumi: the cache was the problem
[2009/10/21 16:04] Adam Frisby: Oh I was going to try that later
[2009/10/21 16:04] Nebadon Izumi: make sure you clear your viewer cache
[2009/10/21 16:04] Nebadon Izumi: before logging in with it
[2009/10/21 16:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: cool Neb
[2009/10/21 16:04] Dave Coyle: kally, is there anything you wish was done differently which might make it easier for someone new to get started?
[2009/10/21 16:05] Kally Rakan: more explanations for those totally new would be nice
[2009/10/21 16:05] Kally Rakan: I'm good at figuring stuff out
[2009/10/21 16:07] Nebadon Izumi: damn it meerkat poofed
[2009/10/21 16:07] Nebadon Izumi: its soo much faster than hippo though
[2009/10/21 16:07] Kally Rakan: dave, I got the newbies notecard but I almost missed it
[2009/10/21 16:07] Kally Rakan: was very handy but I'd've been lost without it
[2009/10/21 16:07] Nebadon Izumi: im on hippo now
[2009/10/21 16:07] Dave Coyle: kally, are you new to virtual worlds in general, or just opensim?
[2009/10/21 16:07] Dave Coyle: sorry, osgrid
[2009/10/21 16:08] Kally Rakan: I've been interested in them for a while but this is the first time I've actually tried them
[2009/10/21 16:09] Dave Coyle: so what parts do you think could use better explanation? navigating the viewer interface? finding stuff in-world? finding people? all of the above?
[2009/10/21 16:09] Adam Frisby: I think we need a good pre-flight site.
[2009/10/21 16:09] Adam Frisby: That is, showing what osgrid is, etc.
[2009/10/21 16:09] Dave Coyle: website?
[2009/10/21 16:09] Adam Frisby: It's a bunch of work tho.
[2009/10/21 16:09] Adam Frisby: Yeah
[2009/10/21 16:09] Adam Frisby: like SL.com - before you register.
[2009/10/21 16:10] Kally Rakan: a short description of the important viewer commands would be good
[2009/10/21 16:10] Kally Rakan: took me a while to figure out what baking textures meant since I didn't know about the advanced menu
[2009/10/21 16:10] Dave Coyle: yeah, it might be good to outline some basics on the web.... logging in to see a notecard already assumes you got some steps right.
[2009/10/21 16:10] Kally Rakan: I was able to find stuff fairly quicky with the help of the notecard but I almost walked right past it
[2009/10/21 16:10] Dave Coyle: ok, i'll note those.
[2009/10/21 16:11] Dave Coyle: would be good if we had a general glossary, too
[2009/10/21 16:11] Kally Rakan: the sign you get it from was right behind you when you arrived
[2009/10/21 16:11] Adelle Fitzgerald: i think that has changed since the telehub was truned off
[2009/10/21 16:12] Dave Coyle: i think we'd benefit from splitting the default landing spot with where a new av lands for the first time
[2009/10/21 16:12] Dave Coyle: i believe that's in the works
[2009/10/21 16:12] Dave Coyle: there's a lot going on in lbsa
[2009/10/21 16:12] Kally Rakan: hmm, I think a more prominent notice about the testing would be good too. If I didn't listen on irc I'd not really know why the plazas are so unstable
[2009/10/21 16:12] Dave Coyle: how would you like to get those sorts of notices?
[2009/10/21 16:13] Dave Coyle: on a web page? twitter feed? email? rss?
[2009/10/21 16:13] Dave Coyle: other?
[2009/10/21 16:13] Nebadon Izumi: we should use twitter more
[2009/10/21 16:13] Nebadon Izumi: since it shows on the login screen
[2009/10/21 16:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: it needs to be in their face at least once in big bold characters i think
[2009/10/21 16:13] Nebadon Izumi: but it only shows the last posting
[2009/10/21 16:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: maybe on signup?
[2009/10/21 16:13] Kally Rakan: well, a more noticable mention on the login screen and maybe a sign at each plaza that explains what's up
[2009/10/21 16:14] Dave Coyle: what about some sort of "general health of the grid/plazas" indicator?
[2009/10/21 16:14] Charlie Omega: heyas
[2009/10/21 16:14] Dave Coyle: hi charlie
[2009/10/21 16:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: im not sure the sign on a plaza is feasable really Kally, they change so much, and the plazas can be running different code from each other
[2009/10/21 16:14] Kally Rakan: yes, something like that
[2009/10/21 16:15] Charlie Omega: slow loading, but thats prolly my crappy WISP
[2009/10/21 16:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: it would be too much to keep them upto date
[2009/10/21 16:15] Kally Rakan: well, I mean something as simple as "The plazas are testing new code so please expect instabilities"
[2009/10/21 16:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: hi Charlie
[2009/10/21 16:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: that could be said of every sim in OSgrid though ;)
[2009/10/21 16:15] Dave Coyle: as much as i'm for in-world stuff as much as possible, i think there's benefit to having things like "you may experience crashes on the plazas because of testing" communicated out-of-band
[2009/10/21 16:16] Kally Rakan: just so new people know it's a dev thing and not just bad stability
[2009/10/21 16:16] Dave Coyle: e.g. via web page or whatever
[2009/10/21 16:16] Dave Coyle: hi omar
[2009/10/21 16:16] Omar Abdelrahim: Hi
[2009/10/21 16:16] Kally Rakan: yes, but both would be good :)
[2009/10/21 16:16] Dave Coyle: yes, kally, i agree
[2009/10/21 16:16] Omar Abdelrahim: i'll be AFK for a bit
[2009/10/21 16:16] Charlie Omega: maybe should make dev only testing sims?
[2009/10/21 16:16] Charlie Omega: seems kinda bad to have noob login sims be testing
[2009/10/21 16:18] Dave Coyle: adelle: true, it could be said of any sim, but i think people have a higher expecation of "stability" (whatever that means) on the plazas because they're centrally managed, highly visible, and highly trafficed
[2009/10/21 16:18] Dave Coyle: so i think it's worth it to single them out
[2009/10/21 16:19] Dave Coyle: charlie: i agree
[2009/10/21 16:19] Adelle Fitzgerald: i do think though by huighlighting the fact that plazas may be unstable, newbies may think the rest of the grid /is/ stable
[2009/10/21 16:19] Adelle Fitzgerald: *highlighting
[2009/10/21 16:19] Charlie Omega: that too
[2009/10/21 16:19] Charlie Omega: another good reason to seperate noob from testing sims
[2009/10/21 16:20] Adelle Fitzgerald: that isnt possible really Charlie, this entire grid is for testing
[2009/10/21 16:20] Charlie Omega: and if/when we get bad build weeks, the total instability can turn some away
[2009/10/21 16:20] Adelle Fitzgerald: its main purpose in life is for testing opensim
[2009/10/21 16:20] Dave Coyle: would you not agree that the first, initial login should be a smooth (as much as possible) experience?
[2009/10/21 16:20] Kally Rakan: one possibility is to make a more stable, simple plaza that people get shunted to if lbsa is down
[2009/10/21 16:21] Charlie Omega: yes I know Adelle, been around OSGrid since almost its inception :-)
[2009/10/21 16:21] Dave Coyle: after that you get thrown to the fire. :)
[2009/10/21 16:21] Adelle Fitzgerald: i agree with taht 500% Dave
[2009/10/21 16:22] Charlie Omega: the nature of opensim covers the fact that any grid/region made using it is in a testing phase
[2009/10/21 16:22] Dave Coyle: charlie: were you suggesting just for the first login, like SL's Orientation Island? or some longer definition of "noob"?
[2009/10/21 16:22] Charlie Omega: but if a new user is directed to osgrid via wiki, and sees a bad build week on the noob sims and cant hardly connect, 2 things will happen
[2009/10/21 16:22] Charlie Omega: 1) we get nailed with tons of noob connection questions in irc
[2009/10/21 16:22] Charlie Omega: 2) they say hell with us
[2009/10/21 16:23] Charlie Omega: yes
[2009/10/21 16:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: are you talking about connecting a region, or them logging into the grid for the first time?
[2009/10/21 16:23] Charlie Omega: first time use
[2009/10/21 16:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: for connecting region?
[2009/10/21 16:23] Adelle Fitzgerald: or just logging in in general?
[2009/10/21 16:24] Kally Rakan: I keep getting asked about setting up regions and such, as though I wasn't a newbie myself :P
[2009/10/21 16:24] Charlie Omega: logging in avatar first time use
[2009/10/21 16:24] Adelle Fitzgerald: theycome to IRC?
[2009/10/21 16:24] Adelle Fitzgerald: wow
[2009/10/21 16:24] Charlie Omega: regions is a whole different beast
[2009/10/21 16:24] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes
[2009/10/21 16:24] Charlie Omega: region setups I mean
[2009/10/21 16:24] Kally Rakan: and about clothes too
[2009/10/21 16:24] Charlie Omega: afk a min
[2009/10/21 16:25] Adelle Fitzgerald: Adam write a very good instructional on his blog, I usually point people there for connecting regions and dont hear from them again
[2009/10/21 16:25] Dave Coyle: yeah, we should gather up some more clothes/shapes/skins (with permission, of course) to make available to first-timers
[2009/10/21 16:25] Adam Frisby: Actually, we're about to post some new instructions as a simhost thing
[2009/10/21 16:26] Adam Frisby: Me & Hiro are writing a comprehensive manual for OpenSim which will be availible for free on simhost.com as a marketing thing
[2009/10/21 16:26] Dave Coyle: i saw you cornering the "opensim" ad words market, adam
[2009/10/21 16:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: nice :)
[2009/10/21 16:26] Dave Coyle: ;)
[2009/10/21 16:26] Adam Frisby: Dave: we've got a $400 google adwords credit. hehe.
[2009/10/21 16:26] Dave Coyle: that will be very cool, the manual
[2009/10/21 16:26] Adam Frisby: Not gonna waste it
[2009/10/21 16:27] Adelle Fitzgerald: as for clothes, shapes, avatar things it would be nice to have a first time one-stop-shop for newbies
[2009/10/21 16:27] Adam Frisby: Man thsi viewer is lagging up every 5-10 secs
[2009/10/21 16:27] Adam Frisby: I think I might try the MK beta
[2009/10/21 16:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe yanno, i hate to say it, but Dan used to have a real good selection of stuff on his regions
[2009/10/21 16:28] Dave Coyle: ...stuff of questionable origin
[2009/10/21 16:28] Adelle Fitzgerald: ahh
[2009/10/21 16:29] Dave Coyle: kally, did you have any trouble with the website when you first signed up?
[2009/10/21 16:29] Dave Coyle: anything unclear?
[2009/10/21 16:30] Kally Rakan: hmm, I think it was kinda difficult to navigate
[2009/10/21 16:31] Dave Coyle: do you remember anything specific? something you might have looked for but couldn't find?
[2009/10/21 16:31] Dave Coyle: (i realize it was a few weeks ago, so no worries if you don't)
[2009/10/21 16:32] Kally Rakan: iirc it was hard to figure out what menus led where
[2009/10/21 16:32] Kally Rakan: btw, you still got SVN updates under activity :)
[2009/10/21 16:32] Dave Coyle: right, i saw that the other day.
[2009/10/21 16:32] Dave Coyle: i'll clean that up.
[2009/10/21 16:32] Kally Rakan: I think it was just that the site doesn't immediatly show what's there. Menus hide it somewhat
[2009/10/21 16:33] Charlie Omega: back
[2009/10/21 16:33] Charlie Omega: reading scrollback
[2009/10/21 16:34] Kally Rakan: the things I've been asked about mostly are sim setup and clothes
[2009/10/21 16:34] Dave Coyle: adam: you does your windows installer do any port opening via upnp?
[2009/10/21 16:34] Kally Rakan: and where to get an area of land seems another popular one
[2009/10/21 16:35] Adam Frisby: Dave: yes
[2009/10/21 16:35] Adam Frisby: It uses Mono.Nat to do UPNP automatically
[2009/10/21 16:35] Dave Coyle: yes. adelle, any ideas for making homestead info easier to find?
[2009/10/21 16:35] Charlie Omega: I am on the 030(10) MK beta and loading is incomplete here
[2009/10/21 16:35] Adam Frisby: Figured it'd cut back on the amount of work needed for clients
[2009/10/21 16:35] Kally Rakan: I didn't have the problem with sims or land since that was the first thing I looked at, even before registering :)
[2009/10/21 16:36] Adelle Fitzgerald: i think maybe some signs in the plazas may help people, i ahve already posted in the forum and on the wire
[2009/10/21 16:36] Adelle Fitzgerald: there has been a steady uptake since posting about the homesteads, but both methods are out of world
[2009/10/21 16:36] Kally Rakan: maybe some immediatly visible links on the front page to those subjects would help
[2009/10/21 16:37] Dave Coyle: neb, i forget if i asked you... have you ever looked into rss plugins for the forums?
[2009/10/21 16:37] Adelle Fitzgerald: though, i do fear that posting in world will encourage people to snap them up immediatly causing them all to go, and then they may not log back in again, causing stale homestead parcels
[2009/10/21 16:37] Adelle Fitzgerald: its really a hard one
[2009/10/21 16:37] Dave Coyle: makes sense
[2009/10/21 16:38] Dave Coyle: is there a current policy on inactivity & homestead parcel ownership?
[2009/10/21 16:38] Adelle Fitzgerald: generally i will give people 60-90 days of not logging in before i clear the parcel, but that applies for older residents
[2009/10/21 16:38] Adelle Fitzgerald: i havent worked out anything for people that take up new parcels
[2009/10/21 16:39] Nebadon Izumi: ya in the past when i took my rounds on homesteads
[2009/10/21 16:40] Nebadon Izumi: anyone who hadnt logged in for 90 dyas
[2009/10/21 16:40] Nebadon Izumi: i reclaim
[2009/10/21 16:40] Nebadon Izumi: checking their last login date on Elgg
[2009/10/21 16:40] Adelle Fitzgerald: i am already seeing signs of people that have claimed a parcel placed a few prims and not logged back in though
[2009/10/21 16:40] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya
[2009/10/21 16:41] Charlie Omega: probably people expecting this to be in some sort of "finished" state
[2009/10/21 16:41] Adelle Fitzgerald: so im thinking of something along the lines of if they are a new resident and dont use the parcel to its potential and dont log in within 2 weeks, it should be reclaimed
[2009/10/21 16:41] Nebadon Izumi: ya didnt you mention something about a prim they have to click?
[2009/10/21 16:41] Adelle Fitzgerald: i did yes
[2009/10/21 16:41] Nebadon Izumi: its a shame IM doesnt work so good from scripts
[2009/10/21 16:41] Nebadon Izumi: to remind people
[2009/10/21 16:42] Adelle Fitzgerald: like a 'tier' payment box in sl, but obviously free
[2009/10/21 16:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[2009/10/21 16:42] Nebadon Izumi: i think thats a good idea for sue
[2009/10/21 16:42] Nebadon Izumi: sure*
[2009/10/21 16:42] Kally Rakan: I set up my own sim specifically because I knew I wouldn't be able to properly use a homestead
[2009/10/21 16:42] Nebadon Izumi: ya i think most folks will outgrow them soon
[2009/10/21 16:42] Adelle Fitzgerald: they have to click it every week in order to keep their parcel active, then say if they dont click ti for 2 weeks/21 days, it flags up
[2009/10/21 16:43] Nebadon Izumi: but it gives people a chance to try it out for a bit
[2009/10/21 16:43] Adam Frisby: hey, can I ask a somewhat pointed question, since we've got at least one non-admin here.
[2009/10/21 16:43] Adam Frisby: for managed opensim hosting; what sort of price point would you find attractive? We're trying to balance providing good overall performance with providing a great price for end users.
[2009/10/21 16:43] Nebs Cherry Martini with Orange Slice whispers: Another route to Nirvana
[2009/10/21 16:44] Adam Frisby: IE, we can probably provide a sim for $25/mo, but you'd be sharing a processor core for example. I'm wondering if that is still attractive.
[2009/10/21 16:44] Dave Coyle: haha @ neb
[2009/10/21 16:44] Dave Coyle looks around for that martini
[2009/10/21 16:44] Charlie Omega: no clue Adam, I wouldn't likely pay for hosting. If I can't host it myself I can't justify the expense
[2009/10/21 16:45] Charlie Omega: so I can't honestly give a real idea there
[2009/10/21 16:45] Nebs Cherry Martini with Orange Slice whispers: Another route to Nirvana
[2009/10/21 16:45] Adam Frisby: hang on brb
[2009/10/21 16:45] Dave Coyle: fwiw, seems a number of people are running small regions on $20/mo VPS plans. add $5 for a managed thing... sounds appealing.
[2009/10/21 16:45] Nebadon Izumi: lol thats the sky vodka bottle
[2009/10/21 16:45] Nebadon Izumi: giving out drinks
[2009/10/21 16:45] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[2009/10/21 16:45] Kally Rakan: I'm afraid I've no idea. I'm doing my sim because I'm interested in the technical parts too. It's for my own interest
[2009/10/21 16:45] Skyy Vodka Bottle v2 (Drink Giver), an object owned by Nebadon Izumi, gave you Nebs Cherry Martini with Orange Slice
Skyy Vodka Bottle v2 (Drink Giver) is located at Bade Plaza <138.6656, 141.9732, 173.7723>.
[2009/10/21 16:46] Charlie Omega: same, I come on here to help testing and to social with oldtimers :-) otherwise my home sim is my sandbox
[2009/10/21 16:46] Omar Abdelrahim: I think that until we see some more stability, and see the point at which we stabilize, it may be premature to talk about such pricing
[2009/10/21 16:46] Charlie Omega: yea
[2009/10/21 16:46] Adelle Fitzgerald: hello Bud
[2009/10/21 16:46] Bud Parnall: Howdy
[2009/10/21 16:46] Omar Abdelrahim: It will come, I think
[2009/10/21 16:46] Dave Coyle: hi bud, paulie
[2009/10/21 16:46] Charlie Omega: if opensim was much closer to 100%, I "may" consider paying a host
[2009/10/21 16:46] Bud Parnall: Physics are fun.....
[2009/10/21 16:47] paulie Flomar: howdeh, evvyone!
[2009/10/21 16:47] Adelle Fitzgerald: hey paulie
[2009/10/21 16:47] Omar Abdelrahim: DId someone forget to put on_rez handlers into the sit scripts?
[2009/10/21 16:47] Bud Parnall: What version is this?
[2009/10/21 16:47] Adam Frisby: back sorry
[2009/10/21 16:48] Adam Frisby: Dave: hrrm, yeah, I guess we can try do a limited offer at that point
[2009/10/21 16:48] Dave Coyle: bud: d38f33. prioritization branch.
[2009/10/21 16:48] Adam Frisby: How do you think opensim will handle next week on the load test?
[2009/10/21 16:48] Bud Parnall: cool
[2009/10/21 16:49] Nebadon Izumi: right now hard to say
[2009/10/21 16:49] Nebadon Izumi: if it were right this moment
[2009/10/21 16:49] Nebadon Izumi: not well
[2009/10/21 16:49] Adam Frisby: Hrrm
[2009/10/21 16:49] Dave Coyle: adam: might be worth seeing if there's any interest. but you might find that people paying $20 for opensim on a vps are the people who want to tinker and do it themselves.
[2009/10/21 16:49] Adelle Fitzgerald: if i were to be honest, i think terrible, i think we got realllly lucky with the 85 that time
[2009/10/21 16:49] Adam Frisby: Hopefully it improves; I know it's been swinging back & forward.
[2009/10/21 16:49] Omar Abdelrahim: Adam, I think the load test is not really a load test. It's more like seeing how many people we can jam into a phone booth
[2009/10/21 16:49] Nebadon Izumi: ya were working hard
[2009/10/21 16:49] Nebadon Izumi: we tested a bunch of patches today
[2009/10/21 16:49] Nebadon Izumi: it can go either way right now
[2009/10/21 16:49] Omar Abdelrahim: and the answer is always the same, too many to make a call
[2009/10/21 16:49] Adelle Fitzgerald: unless someone really pulls it out of the bag
[2009/10/21 16:49] Nebadon Izumi: absolutly worst test ever
[2009/10/21 16:49] Nebadon Izumi: or it could be best test ever
[2009/10/21 16:49] Nebadon Izumi: hehe
[2009/10/21 16:50] Adam Frisby: when was the last 'really great' rev?
[2009/10/21 16:50] Charlie Omega: it seems the true load test is how many av it takes to crash the server logging in at once
[2009/10/21 16:50] Omar Abdelrahim: How is it a test when there is no real test paln, no test script, and mo discipline?
[2009/10/21 16:50] Adam Frisby: Because user randomness is important
[2009/10/21 16:50] Adam Frisby: People opening inventory, changing avs, etc
[2009/10/21 16:51] Adelle Fitzgerald: i get the feeling at the moment the main problem, from a non dev looking in, is that the devs are learning all about this piece(s) of code right now, so i dont expect it to be long before they crack it
[2009/10/21 16:51] Adam Frisby: Are all important to happen at once
[2009/10/21 16:51] Adam Frisby: A fixed test plan skips the randomness
[2009/10/21 16:51] Adam Frisby: which means it usually goes off without a hitch
[2009/10/21 16:51] Omar Abdelrahim: That's not a reason to not plan a test
[2009/10/21 16:51] Omar Abdelrahim: it's a reason to plan in the randomness
[2009/10/21 16:52] Dave Coyle: i have foggy recollection that after the 2nd to last mandatory upgrade (not the last one) things were going well.
[2009/10/21 16:52] Dave Coyle: after that it's a blur for me
[2009/10/21 16:52] Adelle Fitzgerald: stability has been a problem since well before the last libomv update
[2009/10/21 16:52] Omar Abdelrahim: I think that in terms of stability, we need to remeber that this is early developemntal code, on a very large scale real-time software project
[2009/10/21 16:52] Adelle Fitzgerald: maybe back to the previous libomv update
[2009/10/21 16:53] Nebadon Izumi: hmm Adam i dont really have an exact number
[2009/10/21 16:53] Nebadon Izumi: since switching to git
[2009/10/21 16:53] Nebadon Izumi: im f'n lost
[2009/10/21 16:53] Nebadon Izumi: steping through revs is impossible
[2009/10/21 16:53] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[2009/10/21 16:53] Adam Frisby: hehe
[2009/10/21 16:53] Adam Frisby: estimate in days?
[2009/10/21 16:53] Nebadon Izumi: hmm
[2009/10/21 16:53] Adam Frisby: like 14. 3. etc
[2009/10/21 16:53] Nebadon Izumi: the last 85 user test
[2009/10/21 16:53] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[2009/10/21 16:53] Adam Frisby: so 2 weeks
[2009/10/21 16:53] Nebadon Izumi: ya probably something like that
[2009/10/21 16:53] Omar Abdelrahim: yes, how many releases is 12be54adef from 6f34cd3
[2009/10/21 16:54] Dave Coyle: omar: ask git log. :)
[2009/10/21 16:54] Nebadon Izumi: we have been moving so fast
[2009/10/21 16:54] Nebadon Izumi: its hard to remember
[2009/10/21 16:54] Adelle Fitzgerald: maybe from now it would be important to log the git# used for all tests?
[2009/10/21 16:54] Adelle Fitzgerald: and also what branch
[2009/10/21 16:54] Charlie Omega: not a bad idea
[2009/10/21 16:54] Omar Abdelrahim: yes, but it slightly less intuitive than svn was
[2009/10/21 16:54] Dave Coyle: adelle: ++
[2009/10/21 16:54] Kally Rakan: isn't each git rev also matched to an svn one?
[2009/10/21 16:55] Adelle Fitzgerald: sorta
[2009/10/21 16:55] Adelle Fitzgerald: ive never worked that out
[2009/10/21 16:55] Nebadon Izumi: ya it is
[2009/10/21 16:55] Kally Rakan: show version on my sim shows "b1c93cd - r11190"
[2009/10/21 16:55] Adelle Fitzgerald: sonce going to git, i stay with git #
[2009/10/21 16:55] Nebadon Izumi: but its still a pain in the ass to figure it out
[2009/10/21 16:55] Nebadon Izumi: its not easy to stwp
[2009/10/21 16:55] Nebadon Izumi: step
[2009/10/21 16:55] Nebadon Izumi: you have to cross reference that number to a hash
[2009/10/21 16:55] Nebadon Izumi: its a real pain in the ass
[2009/10/21 16:55] Nebadon Izumi: takes much longer than SVN
[2009/10/21 16:55] Adelle Fitzgerald: afaik you cant just revert to the rev number for a git #
[2009/10/21 16:55] Bud Parnall: I usually visualize the branches in gitk to keep up
[2009/10/21 16:55] Nebadon Izumi: from a tester perspective
[2009/10/21 16:55] Kally Rakan: that being git hash followed by the svn rev I think
[2009/10/21 16:55] Nebadon Izumi: GIT is just terrible
[2009/10/21 16:56] Adelle Fitzgerald: you have to trawl logs and stuff to find the git #
[2009/10/21 16:56] Bud Parnall: I am finally gitting it.....
[2009/10/21 16:56] Adelle Fitzgerald: i love git!
[2009/10/21 16:56] Omar Abdelrahim: I think that whatever substantially favors development, I'm for
[2009/10/21 16:56] Kally Rakan: git is notorious for its UI
[2009/10/21 16:56] Dave Coyle: i love git too
[2009/10/21 16:56] Nebadon Izumi: its nice that its easy to pull and change branches
[2009/10/21 16:56] Nebadon Izumi: but stepping through versions
[2009/10/21 16:56] Nebadon Izumi: forget it, it sucks
[2009/10/21 16:56] Omar Abdelrahim: It's what we've got
[2009/10/21 16:56] Adelle Fitzgerald: its only a matter of reverting to the hash
[2009/10/21 16:56] Omar Abdelrahim: moot point
[2009/10/21 16:56] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[2009/10/21 16:56] Nebadon Izumi: its just more work
[2009/10/21 16:56] Nebadon Izumi: and confusing to me
[2009/10/21 16:56] Nebadon Izumi: i like git too
[2009/10/21 16:56] Nebadon Izumi: but going back
[2009/10/21 16:56] Nebadon Izumi: its tough
[2009/10/21 16:56] Nebadon Izumi: trying to find a rev
[2009/10/21 16:57] Nebadon Izumi: trying to remmeber what hash was what
[2009/10/21 16:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: agreed its slightly confusing, and doesnt go exctly in chronological order
[2009/10/21 16:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: well it does and dosnt
[2009/10/21 16:57] Adelle Fitzgerald: hiya Jeeper
[2009/10/21 16:57] Jeeper Shim: Hi
[2009/10/21 16:57] Jeeper Shim: I forgot about this
[2009/10/21 16:57] Dave Coyle: hi jeeper
[2009/10/21 16:57] Kally Rakan: hmm, it looks like each revison is tagged with an svn style revision number. Is that right?
[2009/10/21 16:58] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes
[2009/10/21 16:58] Omar Abdelrahim: In any case, there should be a record of every version at every common or testing sim, even if it's a pain in the ass
[2009/10/21 16:58] Omar Abdelrahim: otherwise the testing is liable to get lost
[2009/10/21 16:58] Adelle Fitzgerald: i agree
[2009/10/21 16:58] Adelle Fitzgerald: i dont think it is much harder than someone keeping a spreadsheet though
[2009/10/21 16:58] Kally Rakan: it might be worth using those tags
[2009/10/21 16:58] Adelle Fitzgerald: or just some notes
[2009/10/21 16:58] Nebadon Izumi: ya its not impossible to figure out
[2009/10/21 16:58] Nebadon Izumi: it just takes a lot longer to step through revs
[2009/10/21 16:58] Nebadon Izumi: to isolate the broken spots
[2009/10/21 16:59] Adam Frisby: might be a good idea
[2009/10/21 16:59] Bud Parnall: Branches where there is siginificant parallel developement make it hard to figure out what broke things
[2009/10/21 16:59] Bud Parnall: When they merge
[2009/10/21 16:59] Adam Frisby: If someone is willing to isolate the key changes since 2 weeks ago that broke everything (there's probably not that many commits in the way - it was within a day or three of the big test)
[2009/10/21 16:59] Nebadon Izumi: tehre are
[2009/10/21 16:59] Nebadon Izumi: there is tons of revs
[2009/10/21 16:59] Bud Parnall: I did thata last time adam
[2009/10/21 16:59] Dave Coyle: what if panda (or some other CI thing) zip'ed up a build after every commit?
[2009/10/21 16:59] Omar Abdelrahim: how many revs just today?
[2009/10/21 16:59] Nebadon Izumi: we are pusing in 20+ a day
[2009/10/21 16:59] Nebadon Izumi: easily
[2009/10/21 17:00] Bud Parnall: and it was impractical to bring everyone back to the non broke point
[2009/10/21 17:00] Nebadon Izumi: and really
[2009/10/21 17:00] Nebadon Izumi: its gonna be a lot of work
[2009/10/21 17:00] Nebadon Izumi: for not much gain
[2009/10/21 17:00] Nebadon Izumi: the code is pretty much been redone since then
[2009/10/21 17:00] Bud Parnall: there had been tremendous work in the texture branch
[2009/10/21 17:00] Nebadon Izumi: so why go backwards
[2009/10/21 17:00] Omar Abdelrahim: At some point, if things don't improve, someone is going to have to herd the cats
[2009/10/21 17:00] Nebadon Izumi: just for a load test anyway
[2009/10/21 17:00] Bud Parnall: but it all came together on the eve of the 85 test
[2009/10/21 17:01] Adelle Fitzgerald: we have the logs already, and the git # and svn style revisions, i just think we need to learn a wat to use them more to our advantage
[2009/10/21 17:01] Kally Rakan: lots of refactoring *and* lots of new features
[2009/10/21 17:01] Kally Rakan: new code rather
[2009/10/21 17:01] Adelle Fitzgerald: how we learn how to use them better, i dont know
[2009/10/21 17:01] Nebadon Izumi: ya
[2009/10/21 17:01] Nebadon Izumi: things have changed radicly since then
[2009/10/21 17:01] Nebadon Izumi: theres really no way we can go back
[2009/10/21 17:01] Nebadon Izumi: the whole packet queue has been redone practicly
[2009/10/21 17:02] Dave Coyle: would automating the build/deployment on plazas make things easier from a testing standpoint?
[2009/10/21 17:02] Omar Abdelrahim: But we can stand still, and take small, incremental steps in one area at a time
[2009/10/21 17:02] Nebadon Izumi: short of throwing out 2 weeks of work
[2009/10/21 17:02] Nebadon Izumi: i doubt it dave
[2009/10/21 17:02] Nebadon Izumi: theres so many problems
[2009/10/21 17:02] Nebadon Izumi: if someone isnt watching every step
[2009/10/21 17:02] Nebadon Izumi: its gonna mess up
[2009/10/21 17:02] Adelle Fitzgerald: i agree with Neb
[2009/10/21 17:02] Nebadon Izumi: im not a big fan of automated testing
[2009/10/21 17:02] Dave Coyle: no, not automated testing
[2009/10/21 17:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: whenever I update a region, i always log in afterwards to amke sure it at least a bit healthy
[2009/10/21 17:03] Omar Abdelrahim: I think losing two weeks of work is much better than continuing to pile problem on problem
[2009/10/21 17:03] Dave Coyle: run a single command and it builds and/or deploys a specific rev to a plaza.
[2009/10/21 17:03] Dave Coyle: neb, you said it's hard to step though the revz
[2009/10/21 17:03] Nebadon Izumi: not always
[2009/10/21 17:03] Nebadon Izumi: but if we are hunting a bug
[2009/10/21 17:03] Nebadon Izumi: its just a lot of work stepping back
[2009/10/21 17:03] Adelle Fitzgerald: hello Simon
[2009/10/21 17:03] Dave Coyle: i'm asking if automating the deployment of those revs is the hard part
[2009/10/21 17:03] Dave Coyle: or the testing itself
[2009/10/21 17:03] Nebadon Izumi: to isolate which rev is broken
[2009/10/21 17:03] Simon Allen: Hi Adelle
[2009/10/21 17:03] Dave Coyle: ah, ok.
[2009/10/21 17:03] Dave Coyle: that answers my question
[2009/10/21 17:04] Nebadon Izumi: it might save a few minutes
[2009/10/21 17:04] Nebadon Izumi: but sometimes dave
[2009/10/21 17:04] Nebadon Izumi: these crashes take hours
[2009/10/21 17:04] Nebadon Izumi: and are very random
[2009/10/21 17:04] Nebadon Izumi: so isolating them is hard enough
[2009/10/21 17:04] Omar Abdelrahim: I no what you're saying, but I once snuck into the office at night and deleted every copy of a months worth of work. In a week, everything worked again. Did lose some friends for a while
[2009/10/21 17:04] Nebadon Izumi: without having to cross reference what branch
[2009/10/21 17:04] Bud Parnall: but when you bring two parallel branches together like will happen with prioritization it will be impossible to step back like we did last night
[2009/10/21 17:04] Nebadon Izumi: what day
[2009/10/21 17:04] Adelle Fitzgerald: its often hard to isolate a specific rev that causes a break though because there could be 20 different commits, then those are merged that causes the break
[2009/10/21 17:04] Nebadon Izumi: what hash etc..
[2009/10/21 17:04] Nebadon Izumi: with SVN
[2009/10/21 17:04] Nebadon Izumi: i could step through 20 revs like it was nothing
[2009/10/21 17:05] Nebadon Izumi: and know where i was without some giant road map to guide me
[2009/10/21 17:05] Nebadon Izumi: all these branches make it hard to know where we were that day
[2009/10/21 17:05] Nebadon Izumi: infact
[2009/10/21 17:05] Bud Parnall: but you did not have the parallel merges to deal with
[2009/10/21 17:05] Nebadon Izumi: 2 weeks ago
[2009/10/21 17:05] Nebadon Izumi: the branch we were running on
[2009/10/21 17:05] Nebadon Izumi: is dead
[2009/10/21 17:05] Nebadon Izumi: i dont even know what branch we were on
[2009/10/21 17:05] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[2009/10/21 17:05] Adam Frisby: htb-throttle
[2009/10/21 17:05] Nebadon Izumi: no clue
[2009/10/21 17:05] Nebadon Izumi: no adam
[2009/10/21 17:05] Nebadon Izumi: we werent
[2009/10/21 17:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: with git it merges the commits in chronological order so they can end up between other commits of other merges and makes it a mine fielf to find
[2009/10/21 17:05] Nebadon Izumi: were were probably on Diva texture
[2009/10/21 17:05] Kally Rakan: neb, could you use the svn style tags?
[2009/10/21 17:05] Bud Parnall: I think there is a cause for keeping only one branch
[2009/10/21 17:05] Adam Frisby: It was htb-throttle, we tagged 0.6.8 the same day as a result
[2009/10/21 17:05] Adelle Fitzgerald: *field
[2009/10/21 17:05] Adam Frisby: so it should be easy to look up
[2009/10/21 17:06] Nebadon Izumi: no it was Diva Texture repo
[2009/10/21 17:06] Omar Abdelrahim: THis is why it's critical to log each little PITA change
[2009/10/21 17:06] Nebadon Izumi: not throttle
[2009/10/21 17:06] Nebadon Izumi: but i dont know for sure
[2009/10/21 17:06] Nebadon Izumi: there was several branches
[2009/10/21 17:06] Nebadon Izumi: not just one
[2009/10/21 17:06] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[2009/10/21 17:06] Nebadon Izumi: theres no way i can remember
[2009/10/21 17:06] Bud Parnall: diva texture was broken after the network version update
[2009/10/21 17:06] Nebadon Izumi: ok brb
[2009/10/21 17:06] Bud Parnall: immediately
[2009/10/21 17:06] Nebadon Izumi: i have to update Wright Plaza
[2009/10/21 17:06] Charlie Omega: I agree Omar
[2009/10/21 17:06] Adelle Fitzgerald: i dont remember either, those two weeks are literally a blur to me
[2009/10/21 17:07] Bud Parnall: that is when I stepped back on the master branch
[2009/10/21 17:07] Dave Coyle: hi simon, tmos
[2009/10/21 17:07] Charlie Omega: its like killing a squirrel cuz the wolf is hunting it, the wolf will kill another
[2009/10/21 17:08] Simon Allen: Hi Dave
[2009/10/21 17:08] Charlie Omega: its just my odd way of lookin at things lol nvm it makes sence to me
[2009/10/21 17:08] Simon Allen: Do wolves eat squirrels?
[2009/10/21 17:08] Charlie Omega: they eat anything
[2009/10/21 17:08] Charlie Omega: hehe
[2009/10/21 17:09] Simon Allen: loll- ok
[2009/10/21 17:09] Adelle Fitzgerald: Dave/Neb, would it be easy to make some kind of script or something that every time a region was run up it logged the git # from the .version file to a text/log file along with the date and time?
[2009/10/21 17:10] Bud Parnall: I think maintaining separate branches will create more frequent instability
[2009/10/21 17:10] Adam Frisby: What might be more useful
[2009/10/21 17:10] Adam Frisby: would be recording uptime
[2009/10/21 17:10] Bud Parnall: but will generate more rapid development
[2009/10/21 17:10] Adam Frisby: whenever we have a crash, have it automatically log the uptime
[2009/10/21 17:10] Charlie Omega: basically if ya keep fixin stuff thinking you are nailing the bug, but in effect not, and breaking more stuff in the process....well
[2009/10/21 17:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: something that could worl within a batch file or something
[2009/10/21 17:10] Adam Frisby: then we can see the trends over time
[2009/10/21 17:10] Adam Frisby: and if there's a major change, we can spot it
[2009/10/21 17:10] Adam Frisby: and roughly when it started
[2009/10/21 17:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: that kinda goes along with my thoughs Adam
[2009/10/21 17:10] Kally Rakan: that snmp module that was mentioned on irc would help a lot
[2009/10/21 17:10] Adelle Fitzgerald: if it could log the git # and time date etc
[2009/10/21 17:11] Dave Coyle: and then we could make pretty graphs with rrd!
[2009/10/21 17:11] Dave Coyle likes pretty graphs
[2009/10/21 17:11] Nebadon Izumi: heh
[2009/10/21 17:11] Adam Frisby: hehe, Dave if you want to build it feel free
[2009/10/21 17:11] Adam Frisby: hehe
[2009/10/21 17:11] Adam Frisby: brb
[2009/10/21 17:11] Nebadon Izumi: one problem with uptime stats
[2009/10/21 17:12] Dave Coyle: yeah, lemme think about that one
[2009/10/21 17:12] Adelle Fitzgerald: that way it should eb easier to pinpoint a specific rev that causes lesser uptime or greater uptime
[2009/10/21 17:12] Nebadon Izumi: right now the sims just stop responding to logins
[2009/10/21 17:12] Nebadon Izumi: but dont crash
[2009/10/21 17:12] Nebadon Izumi: so it looks like its running for 4 days
[2009/10/21 17:12] Nebadon Izumi: but on day 1 6 hours in it stopped accepting logins
[2009/10/21 17:12] Charlie Omega: this is way over my head here, but how about a "phone home" type feature where the sim sends a table entry to the database that includes rev#, time and date on each connection to the asset server on the grid?
[2009/10/21 17:12] Nebadon Izumi: so im not sure how effective that stat would be
[2009/10/21 17:13] Simon Allen: Hi Paulie
[2009/10/21 17:13] Omar Abdelrahim: No reason to think and particular watchdog would not go on working
[2009/10/21 17:13] Charlie Omega: and uptime
[2009/10/21 17:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: something that ran on region startup would work though, and give us 200% more info than we have now
[2009/10/21 17:13] Nebadon Izumi: oh it would
[2009/10/21 17:13] Nebadon Izumi: but the stats would lie
[2009/10/21 17:13] Dave Coyle: there's also no way to know short uptime because it was upgraded or short uptime because it crashed
[2009/10/21 17:13] Nebadon Izumi: its not up
[2009/10/21 17:13] Nebadon Izumi: if its not accepting logins
[2009/10/21 17:13] Nebadon Izumi: just becasue its running doesnt mean its working
[2009/10/21 17:13] Kally Rakan: some way to get at the internal stats without needing to signal mono would probably help a lot
[2009/10/21 17:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: im not bothered about stats and graphs
[2009/10/21 17:13] Adelle Fitzgerald: just a logfile
[2009/10/21 17:13] Omar Abdelrahim: Can't we keep track of logins, and use that to get a ballpark of when a sim failed?
[2009/10/21 17:13] Dave Coyle: it would be nice to know, for the plazas at least, what rev was running on what day
[2009/10/21 17:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: if need be we can create stats from the logfile manually as and when we need
[2009/10/21 17:14] Omar Abdelrahim: or use bot logins?
[2009/10/21 17:14] Dave Coyle: which is what i think adelle was suggesting
[2009/10/21 17:14] Charlie Omega: when a sim drops off, the database server knows its not connected right??
[2009/10/21 17:14] Nebadon Izumi: nope
[2009/10/21 17:14] Nebadon Izumi: only if its hard crash
[2009/10/21 17:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: yes dave, and as adam suggested the time and date of when it started
[2009/10/21 17:14] Charlie Omega: sry for double ? my connection is weirdly lagging
[2009/10/21 17:14] Nebadon Izumi: if logins just stop then no
[2009/10/21 17:14] Omar Abdelrahim: A sim can hang in many ways
[2009/10/21 17:14] Omar Abdelrahim: they're creative like tah
[2009/10/21 17:14] Nebadon Izumi: heh ya
[2009/10/21 17:14] Dave Coyle: adelle: yes, i'd like to collect that info, too
[2009/10/21 17:14] Adelle Fitzgerald: hanging sims we really cant do anything about
[2009/10/21 17:14] Nebadon Izumi: its nice to collect stats
[2009/10/21 17:14] Nebadon Izumi: but right now we cant trust them
[2009/10/21 17:15] Omar Abdelrahim: Even w/ console =basic I sometimes hit enter on a frozen sim
[2009/10/21 17:15] Adelle Fitzgerald: unless we actually kill it, it will stay hung, so it will always for now require manual intervention
[2009/10/21 17:15] Omar Abdelrahim: and get flooded w/ messages and it goes back to work
[2009/10/21 17:16] Omar Abdelrahim: Is it possible to have a bot autologin and do some basic functions to ping a sim on a regular basis?
[2009/10/21 17:16] Adelle Fitzgerald: i suppose it would be possible
[2009/10/21 17:16] Adelle Fitzgerald: how it would be done, im not sure
[2009/10/21 17:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: but if said bot had an attachment that could write back to a database it would at least show login activity
[2009/10/21 17:17] Adelle Fitzgerald: but do bots have attachments?
[2009/10/21 17:18] Omar Abdelrahim: if we have an app that runs a bot, we should be able to do everything at the app level
[2009/10/21 17:18] Charlie Omega: maybe make a module in idealist that does it
[2009/10/21 17:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: it would probably eman a lot of work to the bot program
[2009/10/21 17:18] Charlie Omega: or yea ap level in some form
[2009/10/21 17:18] Adelle Fitzgerald: at the moment i think all energy is being ploughed into getting opensim and its comms stable
[2009/10/21 17:19] Adelle Fitzgerald: it is a nice to have i agree
[2009/10/21 17:19] Adelle Fitzgerald: but i really dont know about the practicality of it
[2009/10/21 17:19] Omar Abdelrahim: How much of a problem is it that OSG is pretty compromised, from a user experience perspective? How long can that be weathered?
[2009/10/21 17:19] Adam Frisby: I think in this and next month, we'll probably see some nice improvements in comms as a whole
[2009/10/21 17:19] Adam Frisby: JH has already poured a ton of effort into it
[2009/10/21 17:20] Adelle Fitzgerald: i dont understand what you mean, Omar
[2009/10/21 17:20] Omar Abdelrahim: I mean that at this point, anyone using OSG as a user, not as a simulator enthusiast has to have noticed that something is wrong
[2009/10/21 17:21] Omar Abdelrahim: and at some point they may lose patience and we will have to rebuild cruitical mass
[2009/10/21 17:21] Kally Rakan: I got the impression that OSGrid is the place to go if you're running your own sims unless you have specific reason to go to another one
[2009/10/21 17:21] Adam Frisby: I have wondered whether it is worthwhile to build a second sub-grid for people who want a stability focus
[2009/10/21 17:21] Omar Abdelrahim: How practical is a subgrid
[2009/10/21 17:21] Adam Frisby: We talked about doing a continent for that before; and I'd like to proceed with it
[2009/10/21 17:21] Adam Frisby: it's practical enough
[2009/10/21 17:21] Adam Frisby: The only problems come when we get NI changes
[2009/10/21 17:21] Simon Allen: Depends on what you're trying to achieve
[2009/10/21 17:21] Charlie Omega: lol damn typing replies here into IRC lol
[2009/10/21 17:22] Adam Frisby: but I think NI changes are nearly at an end, now that the grid servers have been ROBUSTed.
[2009/10/21 17:22] Omar Abdelrahim: I think the last time, AIR, the focus was on content quality more than stability
[2009/10/21 17:22] Simon Allen: If you want take up from masses - you need a stable grid
[2009/10/21 17:22] Omar Abdelrahim: I think the reality is somewhere in the middle
[2009/10/21 17:22] Kally Rakan: I think that a stable starting sim where you can reliably login would help a lot with the perception of stability
[2009/10/21 17:22] Omar Abdelrahim: people here are like urban poineers
[2009/10/21 17:23] Omar Abdelrahim: but after a certain number of muggins, it stops being an adventure
[2009/10/21 17:23] Charlie Omega: yup, a welcoming island
[2009/10/21 17:23] Simon Allen: Understood - but what's the purpose here?
[2009/10/21 17:23] Simon Allen: Is it to stay at the very cutting edge of this development?
[2009/10/21 17:23] Omar Abdelrahim: or puposes
[2009/10/21 17:23] Simon Allen: Or to establoish OSG as a viable mass medium?
[2009/10/21 17:23] Omar Abdelrahim: why either or
[2009/10/21 17:23] Simon Allen: Exactly
[2009/10/21 17:23] Omar Abdelrahim: I think the reality is more nuanced
[2009/10/21 17:24] Simon Allen: That's why you need a stable grid and anothe rarea where you can go wild
[2009/10/21 17:24] Simon Allen: Becuase mass users won't tolerate the level of bugginess in here now
[2009/10/21 17:24] Omar Abdelrahim: and anything we can do to releive the tension between the two purposes is to everyones interest
[2009/10/21 17:24] Simon Allen: Agreed
[2009/10/21 17:24] Adam Frisby: I think maybe building a second grid at say 9000x9000 versus 10Kx10K might be hte way to go
[2009/10/21 17:24] Adam Frisby: use the same UGIM
[2009/10/21 17:24] Adam Frisby: and accounts; but have people at 9K using specific versions instead of latest
[2009/10/21 17:24] Adelle Fitzgerald: so more a subset of sims?
[2009/10/21 17:24] Adam Frisby: yeah
[2009/10/21 17:25] Adam Frisby: subset of sims running more stable revs
[2009/10/21 17:25] Adelle Fitzgerald: like you mentioned at OS2B
[2009/10/21 17:25] Adam Frisby: We move half our plazas there, and leave half for testing
[2009/10/21 17:25] Adam Frisby: yeah
[2009/10/21 17:25] Adelle Fitzgerald: right
[2009/10/21 17:25] Omar Abdelrahim: sounds good. The horrible bugs are not in the services
[2009/10/21 17:25] Kally Rakan: a handful of stable sims where you can reliably connect would help a lot
[2009/10/21 17:25] Adelle Fitzgerald: im all for that
[2009/10/21 17:25] Adam Frisby: We just have to have a reliable mechanism where we can pick good revs
[2009/10/21 17:25] Adam Frisby: and notify everyone in the 9K area to stick to them
[2009/10/21 17:25] Kally Rakan: when noone could log in to any plaza, I saw a whole bunch of complaints in irc. I wonder how many people just gave up?
[2009/10/21 17:25] Adelle Fitzgerald: there was unrest amoungst the community at the time that was mentioned, but I do think there is much benefit to it
[2009/10/21 17:26] Charlie Omega: I also think a more obvious notice that opensim is not yet near the functionality that most casual users expect, just to be up front and make it not a shock when Joe User tries to script some mass building enterprise and it fails
[2009/10/21 17:26] Omar Abdelrahim: and sometimes it will be wrong
[2009/10/21 17:26] Omar Abdelrahim: the unrest was over the notion that their would different tiers of "citizebship"
[2009/10/21 17:26] Charlie Omega: users have to have realistic and patient expectations as well
[2009/10/21 17:26] Adam Frisby: I think it would be good if we could setup the gridserver to blacklist that area for registrations, then handle those manually
[2009/10/21 17:26] Adam Frisby: on an apply/approve basis
[2009/10/21 17:26] Simon Allen: Expectation management is critical in these situations
[2009/10/21 17:26] Adam Frisby: So we can get everyone to confirm they will be responsible running regions in that area
[2009/10/21 17:26] Adelle Fitzgerald: Adam ++
[2009/10/21 17:26] Omar Abdelrahim: It needs to be done very delicately
[2009/10/21 17:27] Omar Abdelrahim: because there are a number of people for whom it will be a hot button
[2009/10/21 17:27] Simon Allen: The trick is to figure out a repeatable system for defining those expectations and making sure anyonelogging into the stable gris understands them
[2009/10/21 17:27] Adam Frisby: Yeah
[2009/10/21 17:27] Omar Abdelrahim: who are needed
[2009/10/21 17:27] Kally Rakan: it's awkward that the social side of it is conflicting with the testing side but I feel that the social side brings people who can form a pool to help in future
[2009/10/21 17:27] Charlie Omega: once opensim is stable and doing quite well, I think it will "sell" itself
[2009/10/21 17:27] Dave Coyle: simon: agreed
[2009/10/21 17:27] Adam Frisby: Stability has been a dev focus the last month
[2009/10/21 17:27] Adam Frisby: We've quashed a ton of bugs
[2009/10/21 17:27] Adam Frisby: Very few new features, the focus has been really on bugkilling
[2009/10/21 17:28] Simon Allen: ... and you are all doing insanely crazy smart work on it
[2009/10/21 17:28] Adam Frisby: I think there's been good results personally
[2009/10/21 17:28] Adam Frisby: sims seem to be more stable under light load
[2009/10/21 17:28] Omar Abdelrahim: Like the Hydra
[2009/10/21 17:28] Adam Frisby: heavy load seems to be the area of most problems
[2009/10/21 17:28] Simon Allen: I guess what I'm saying is that if you want it to be a mass medium - you gotta play some stability games
[2009/10/21 17:29] Adam Frisby: yep
[2009/10/21 17:29] Omar Abdelrahim: If you have a dual grid, you need to position the stable grid as a shelter for sim operators from the instability
[2009/10/21 17:29] Charlie Omega: yes, but not to hurt progress, everyone wants stability, even if to make sure the beast doesn't get too big and too many bugs pile up
[2009/10/21 17:29] Omar Abdelrahim: do that, and they'll flock over
[2009/10/21 17:30] Adam Frisby: The problem is keeping the stable area stable
[2009/10/21 17:30] Charlie Omega: yea
[2009/10/21 17:30] Adam Frisby: it'll mean holding off on getting the latest shinies
[2009/10/21 17:30] Adam Frisby: which is always a challenge
[2009/10/21 17:30] Omar Abdelrahim: but not too stable
[2009/10/21 17:30] Simon Allen: Yes- because if sim operators base anything of value on it that needs to be accesible and ./ or works repeatablym and it is buggy as hell , it will kill it stone dead.
[2009/10/21 17:30] Adam Frisby: Would be nice if we could get the gridserver to lock certain positions to certain versions
[2009/10/21 17:30] Simon Allen: = no take up
[2009/10/21 17:30] Omar Abdelrahim: it oughtta be a second phase test area
[2009/10/21 17:30] Omar Abdelrahim: Need a reservation system
[2009/10/21 17:30] Charlie Omega: maybe you can if you have sims send the server it's version tag?
[2009/10/21 17:30] Omar Abdelrahim: and a little discipline
[2009/10/21 17:31] Adam Frisby: if someone has time; I'd really appreciate someone reimplementing the grid server in PHP; it'd give us a lot more power to be customising these things
[2009/10/21 17:31] Adam Frisby: I dont have the time myself
[2009/10/21 17:31] Charlie Omega: and server then places it in specified area for tag rev
[2009/10/21 17:31] Adam Frisby: (just the grid server, user/etc is fine as is)
[2009/10/21 17:31] Omar Abdelrahim: need a limites number of acceptable versions, and a means of communcating that to sim operators
[2009/10/21 17:31] Simon Allen: So you need a structure and some responsibilities to do that
[2009/10/21 17:31] Kally Rakan: maybe have a certain set of coordinates reserved for sims that only run approved versions?
[2009/10/21 17:32] Omar Abdelrahim: or maybe some established sims can stay put, but have the benefit of sanctioned releases
[2009/10/21 17:32] Omar Abdelrahim: no one likes to move
[2009/10/21 17:32] Omar Abdelrahim: you get used to your neighbors
[2009/10/21 17:33] Omar Abdelrahim: I think the main thing is to have a set of approved as stableish releases
[2009/10/21 17:33] Nebadon Izumi: heh sorry im quiet guys
[2009/10/21 17:33] Nebadon Izumi: has anyone called on me?
[2009/10/21 17:33] Nebadon Izumi: im doing 10 things at once here
[2009/10/21 17:33] Adelle Fitzgerald: hehe
[2009/10/21 17:33] Adam Frisby: nah I dont think fixing versions across the whole grid is in our scope
[2009/10/21 17:33] Adam Frisby: We like being able to test the latest and greatest
[2009/10/21 17:33] Adam Frisby: it's part of OSgrid
[2009/10/21 17:33] Charlie Omega: when are you not doing 10 things at once? when yer sleeping?
[2009/10/21 17:33] Omar Abdelrahim: Not the whole grid
[2009/10/21 17:33] Adam Frisby: The key is satisfying the people who want a stable version too
[2009/10/21 17:34] Simon Allen: You can have both
[2009/10/21 17:34] Omar Abdelrahim: but everyone wants to know that version blahblahblah is "stable"
[2009/10/21 17:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: alright, i need ot head to bed
[2009/10/21 17:34] Simon Allen: Just neeed to define both systems, and the predictable transfer between them
[2009/10/21 17:34] Dave Coyle: hi key
[2009/10/21 17:34] Key Gruin: Hi everyone
[2009/10/21 17:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: dave are you gonna keep a chat log?
[2009/10/21 17:34] Key Gruin: guess I'm late
[2009/10/21 17:34] Omar Abdelrahim: Key!
[2009/10/21 17:34] Dave Coyle: adelle: yes
[2009/10/21 17:34] Simon Allen: Hi Key
[2009/10/21 17:34] Key Gruin: hey Omar
[2009/10/21 17:34] Key Gruin: Simon
[2009/10/21 17:34] Adelle Fitzgerald: cool, i catch up on the rest soon
[2009/10/21 17:34] Key Gruin: HI Adelle
[2009/10/21 17:35] Adelle Fitzgerald: hiya
[2009/10/21 17:35] Key Gruin: bye Adelle l)
[2009/10/21 17:35] Kally Rakan: 'night adelle
[2009/10/21 17:35] Omar Abdelrahim: gotta go give the cats their treats. Important RL activity
[2009/10/21 17:35] Adelle Fitzgerald: night all :)
[2009/10/21 17:35] Omar Abdelrahim: night adelle
[2009/10/21 17:35] Charlie Omega: nn
[2009/10/21 17:35] Jeeper Shim: g'night Adelle
[2009/10/21 17:35] Adelle Fitzgerald is Offline
[2009/10/21 17:35] Dave Coyle: yeah, since this is the first one of these, not sure what people's expectations are... any objections to my putting the log of this meeting on the osgrid wiki afterwards?
[2009/10/21 17:35] Charlie Omega: none here
[2009/10/21 17:36] Dave Coyle: great.
[2009/10/21 17:36] Dave Coyle: well, we've been at it for 90 mins. any remaining items before we call it a day/evening/morning?
[2009/10/21 17:37] Dave Coyle: i'd like to make this a weekly thing
[2009/10/21 17:37] Kally Rakan: btw, I just remembered that the proposal to name the different grid areas was alpha, beta and gamma
[2009/10/21 17:37] Simon Allen: Weekly is good
[2009/10/21 17:37] Dave Coyle: and if there's continued interest, look into scheduling (or rotating) to different days/times so people in other parts of the world can make it, too.
[2009/10/21 17:38] Jeeper Shim: that's a good idea
[2009/10/21 17:38] Kally Rakan: put it in the calendar so people can subscribe
[2009/10/21 17:38] Dave Coyle: yes, i already added this week's and next weeks (same day/time).
[2009/10/21 17:39] Dave Coyle: i'll add additional weeks, too
[2009/10/21 17:39] Simon Allen: Noob question - where's the calendar?
[2009/10/21 17:39] Jeeper Shim: on the website
[2009/10/21 17:39] Adam Frisby: login screen and website
[2009/10/21 17:39] Simon Allen: ok - ty
[2009/10/21 17:39] Dave Coyle: http://osgrid.org -> Social -> Events
[2009/10/21 17:39] Adam Frisby: OK, I'm going to vamoose, back in a while
[2009/10/21 17:39] Kally Rakan: just occurred to me, an inworld object that can subscribe to calendars might be handy too
[2009/10/21 17:40] Kally Rakan: like a sign with "Todays Events"
[2009/10/21 17:40] Dave Coyle: see you around, adam
[2009/10/21 17:40] Jeeper Shim: A group and send notices
[2009/10/21 17:40] Kally Rakan: even better
[2009/10/21 17:40] Dave Coyle: good idea.
[2009/10/21 17:40] Dave Coyle: i just created an "OSGrid Town Hall Meeting" group
[2009/10/21 17:41] Charlie Omega: send me that group invite
[2009/10/21 17:41] Dave Coyle: join it, and i'll send announcements to it
[2009/10/21 17:41] Dave Coyle: sure, charlie
[2009/10/21 17:41] Jeeper Shim: Me too please
[2009/10/21 17:41] Kally Rakan: me too please
[2009/10/21 17:41] Jeeper Shim: ty
[2009/10/21 17:41] Charlie Omega: ty
[2009/10/21 17:42] Kally Rakan: thank you
[2009/10/21 17:42] Simon Allen: Ditto pls
[2009/10/21 17:42] Dave Coyle: it's open enrollement, so feel free to pass the word
[2009/10/21 17:42] Simon Allen: Ok
[2009/10/21 17:42] Monerda Skute: hey everyone ;)
[2009/10/21 17:42] Dave Coyle: hi monerda
[2009/10/21 17:42] Jeeper Shim: Hey Monerda
[2009/10/21 17:42] Kally Rakan: hi
[2009/10/21 17:42] Key Gruin: HI Monerda :)
[2009/10/21 17:42] Monerda Skute: I just came from Wright
[2009/10/21 17:42] Dave Coyle: ok, this has been great info.
[2009/10/21 17:43] Dave Coyle: i'll post the log, and put a link in IRC
[2009/10/21 17:43] Dave Coyle: and send it to the group
[2009/10/21 17:43] Nebadon Izumi: nice :)
[2009/10/21 17:43] Key Gruin: thanks Dave
[2009/10/21 17:43] Charlie Omega: ok im gonna log a bit, good to see ya all
[2009/10/21 17:43] Dave Coyle: and hopefully i'll see you the same time/day/place next week
[2009/10/21 17:43] Nebadon Izumi: hopefully next week we have chairs
[2009/10/21 17:43] Nebadon Izumi: lol
[2009/10/21 17:43] Dave Coyle: bye charlie
[2009/10/21 17:43] Dave Coyle: hehe
[2009/10/21 17:43] Simon Allen: lol
[2009/10/21 17:43] Key Gruin: wish I hadn't missed it
[2009/10/21 17:43] Jeeper Shim: I dont see the groupi my list. I joined it
[2009/10/21 17:44] Kally Rakan: it's not in my group list but I am listed as a member if I search for the group and check members
[2009/10/21 17:44] Dave Coyle: jeeper, might not show up until you tp or relog
[2009/10/21 17:44] Dave Coyle: not sure.
[2009/10/21 17:44] Kally Rakan: probably a slacking group server notification ;)
[2009/10/21 17:44] Jeeper Shim: Ok. probably that's it
[2009/10/21 17:44] Dave Coyle: but if it doesn't work i have you in the log here
[2009/10/21 17:44] Dave Coyle: and i'll make sure you're in
[2009/10/21 17:44] Dave Coyle: neb, you doing testing in wright now?
[2009/10/21 17:44] Jeeper Shim: ok. I"m sure it's there
[2009/10/21 17:45] Dave Coyle: i'm gonna go head over to wright and see what's going on.
[2009/10/21 17:45] Dave Coyle: i'll see everyone later.
[2009/10/21 17:45] Monerda Skute: bye Dave
[2009/10/21 17:45] Dave Coyle: thanks for coming
[2009/10/21 17:45] Kally Rakan: bye